Podcast Episode 394: Not Your Average Workout: The FACE Method Every Midlife Mom Needs Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

JoAnn Crohn (00:00)

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host, JoAnn Crone, along here with the brilliant Brie Tucker. 

Brie Tucker (00:08)

Hello, how are you?

JoAnn Crohn (00:10)

I am so excited about today’s episode. It is actually a topic that me and my sister talk about a lot because we’re very concerned about our parents aging. And thus we’re really concerned about like what we can do for the aging process. I mean, Brie, I know we have this conversation a lot for your parents as well. yeah.

Brie Tucker (00:26)

Yeah,

yeah. And it’s not even just my parents. It’s also me because I’m starting to notice those changes. And it’s been interesting. We’ll say that it’s been an interesting kind of situation with getting older and all the things that you never thought would change that just kind of are like, so this is going to be a new normal thing. Now this whole like having a backache from standing too long in line at the grocery store.

JoAnn Crohn (00:53)

yeah, there are all these things that come up as we age that we don’t expect. But we want you to know that we are here for you. This episode is for moms who feel overwhelmed, underappreciated and stuck managing everything for your family. And you are not alone. And in this podcast episode, we are talking about your physical health, what you can do now to reclaim your energy and secure it for the future.

Brie Tucker (01:20)

And can I just say I am so excited about our guest today. I just had to throw that in there. I’m so excited.

JoAnn Crohn (01:26)

Our guest today is Dr. Vonda Wright. She’s a double board certified orthopedic surgeon and internationally recognized authority on human performance, longevity and women’s health. She has served as a physician for athletes around the world, including World Drug Bee and the PGA and has been featured on the Today Show, the New York Times, USA Today and the Mel Robbins podcast. She has authored five books, including coming up for you all, Unbreakable.

A Woman’s Guide to Aging with Power, which drops August 25th. Dr. Vonda is a mom to six and lives with her husband, a retired two-time Stanley Cup champion near Orlando, Florida. And with that, let’s get on with the show.

Hi Vonda, how are you?

Dr. Vonda Wright (02:16)

I’m so well, thanks for having me.

JoAnn Crohn (02:18)

We are super excited to get into this issue because, you know, Brie and I, we’re like early forties. We’ll say early forties.

Brie Tucker (02:28)

Very generous JoAnn, early 40s for me.

I’m dipping into the late 40s here in about a month and a half. So I’m not too far from it.

JoAnn Crohn (02:38)

But we’re noticing, of course, all of these things happening with our bodies, our energy level, and of course, aging, perimenopause, menopause is such a big topic right now. And we’re so excited to get into this conversation with you.

Brie Tucker (02:52)

Yeah.

Dr. Vonda Wright (02:57)

well, I’m so happy to have it.

JoAnn Crohn (02:59)

So I started hormone replacement therapy about two months ago. happy for you. Yeah. Yeah. And it’s been a life changer, a life changer. And I know that in your book, multiple times through the first chapter, you are mentioning all of these time bombs that happen and how estrogen is a protective factor for so many of these aging processes. But before we get into those time bombs, you also have a story about how your grandparents’ health is different than your dad’s health because of some things that your dad did differently. Can you tell us about that?

Dr. Vonda Wright (03:35)

Well, I think there’s a myth in this country that aging is this inevitable decline from vitality to frailty and that there’s nothing we can do about it. And sometimes what I see in women is this resignation of just going to happen. I’m going to feel like I was about to swear on your podcast.

JoAnn Crohn (03:53)

It’s okay, you can do that.

Dr. Vonda Wright (03:55)

I feel like shit, I’m never going to be the same

Brie Tucker (03:58)

Oh I feeI like that right now, yeah.

Dr. Vonda Wright (03:59)

Oh we’re gonna help you Brie.  I mean listen, we’re going to have a session right now. ⁓

JoAnn Crohn (03:59)

Yes!

Dr. Vonda Wright (04:07)

We live in this resignation, but the reality is it is not just my experience. It is not just the experience of all the women I take care of or other women who have mastered midlife. It is the experience of the research I did and many other researchers do that show that the way we choose to live, our lifestyle decisions can have a remarkable effect on not only how long we live, but how we live long, meaning

Listen, you read my book. I was in full on midlife misery, menopause misery. And I will say to you in most days, I feel like I’ve mastered this and I’m happy to tell everybody how to do it. But it is not an inevitable decline. You don’t have to feel terrible forever, but you do have to take action because aging is not for sissies and it is not for passively sitting by.

Brie Tucker (05:01)

Yes. Okay, bring on those cheat sheets because Brie is ready to take notes.

Dr. Vonda Wright (05:05)

Are you ready?

JoAnn Crohn (05:06)

Yes. First, Vonda, though, you mentioned, how your grandparents really lived by the lifestyle. Yeah. On the, like, Midwestern farm, eating the fried food.

Dr. Vonda Wright (05:16)

Yeah, so I give examples. That’s what’s unique about this longevity book is A, it’s through the perspective of women and B, I’m telling stories of myself and other people, but I could tell both sides of the family. But the side I’m going to tell you is my father’s side of the family. They inherited the land during homesteading times and had this big plot of land in Kansas where typical of farmers, they worked hard, they ate really bad food, usually fried and lard, and it was the custom of the time to smoke. What they had going for them is that they worked hard on a farm, right? They were agrarian people. They’re working all the time, doing heavy labor. But the reality is that lifestyle matters, and both of my grandparents died relatively young in their early to mid-60s, one of chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, because my grandfather smoked like a fish, and my grandmother died of a stroke at a very young age.

Well, those grandparents had four children and my father, my entire life, he’s the youngest of that family. My entire life, I have only known him to be an endurance athlete. He’d be out running on the roads of Kansas. We wouldn’t even know where he was because there’s no GPS or cell phone. We’re like, where’d this man go? But even though he grew up in that terrible diet, even though he did not start eating a healthier diet until he married my mother and they grew a five acre garden. We had all these fresh food. He is 86 right now and he is still plugging, right? So he has outlived his parents by almost two decades. And it has to be because genetics are only a very small role in our total health span and lifespan. I’m going to tell you for sure. My own mother is overjoyed.

when I say that because it means I’m not blaming her for my age.

JoAnn Crohn (07:16)

I know!

Brie Tucker (07:17)

Right? Because moms, get blamed for everything.

JoAnn Crohn (07:20)

That’s how it works. Well, and also I could attest to, I see it in my own family. My grandmother had four children. My mom is the youngest. And then there is my uncle Pete, who is I think about nine or 10 years older than my mom. for his 80th birthday, jumped out of an airplane, parachuted out of an airplane. my God. This man, he works out. He’s like walking down the streets of downtown Tucson. My sister’s like, my gosh, is that my uncle? That’s my uncle.

Because he just embraced this physical lifestyle and a lot of physical activity. And in your book, you talk about epigenetics, which I think is fascinating. And I want to get a little nerdy in it. Epigenetics is basically you have your DNA, but you can affect which attributes express themselves based on what you do in your lifestyle. Did I get that right, Vonda?

Dr. Vonda Wright (08:12)

Because your DNA is your basic blueprint of who makes you you. But whether or not the genes turn on and off have to do with a lot of factors. One of the factors is the lifestyle choices you make. Are you eating broccoli? Are you running or walking? Are you moving? And so each one of those little gene clusters or SNPs, they get turned on and off based on our behaviors. So it is the reality. When I started writing books,

I would quote that 70 % of our health and aging is due to the lifestyle choices. But recently I was at a longevity conference, the Milk and Institute conference, and those longevity people were talking about up to 90%. So all that means is that get off the sad soapbox, people. You can control your health and aging.

JoAnn Crohn (09:03)

I love that control that you’re giving back to us because it does no good when you feel helpless. But when you have this sense of control, you’re actually motivated to do the things that prevent the negative effects of aging to happen. You talk about these six time bombs, and one of those time bombs is about mitochondrial dysfunction. Can you explain that? Especially like define what mitochondria do in your body?

Dr. Vonda Wright (09:31)

So when we talk about the time bombs of aging within the health and aging medical literature, over the last few years, scientists have identified those factors which happen with aging. They’re natural parts of aging. They’re called the hallmarks of aging. For the purposes of Unbreakable, I’ve chosen six of them that I think have the highest impact on our outcome. And I’ve called them time bombs because you never know they’re happening.

JoAnn Crohn (09:59)

No.

Dr. Vonda Wright (10:00)

all of a sudden, you you’re being 30 pounds in midlife or you have a So what we do is build shields against those so they never go off. But one of the time bombs is mitochondrial dysfunction. So have you ever wondered how food goes into our bodies, how fats, proteins, carbohydrates go into our body, and all of a sudden we have enough energy to go for a run or take care of our kids or

God forbid clean the house if you have to.

Brie Tucker (10:33)

We’re not talking about my eight cups of coffee, right?

Dr. Vonda Wright (10:37)

Caffeine is a different, yes. No. So how does that happen? So when we eat, those macronutrients are broken down into the smallest components, amino acids, fatty acids, glucose. They’re taken through the blood and somebody’s got to do the work to transform food to energy. And it is the mitochondria. Mitochondria, we believe are inherited through the mothers. So you can have your historic mother, it’s like this, your mother’s DNA age for generations within the mitochondria, but their job is to take the food you eat and turn it into an energy substrate called ATP. ATP fuels everything. And so with age, with the natural chemistry of the body, we make these free radicals, they’re oxygen. metabolites that can do bad things in our body when they build up, our mitochondria become less efficient and they stop dividing as well. That is a time bomb of aging because without the proper machinery to make energy, we don’t make so much energy. We aren’t as metabolically healthy. We do not process our food as well. So it’s really important to keep those guys as healthy as possible.

JoAnn Crohn (11:59)

Yeah, so what I’m hearing is that as we age, it’s not as easy for our bodies to take the fuel we put in and produce energy to make us go, which could really explain why we may feel less energetic as we age if we don’t take the steps. we don’t take the steps to combat that

Dr. Vonda Wright (12:17)

It’s One of the reasons. I mean, it’s multifactorial, but it could be one of the reasons.

JoAnn Crohn (12:22)

Yeah. So coming up next, we are going to delve into the method that will actually help you combat these things. And that’s coming up right after this. So before the break, we talked a lot about certain time bombs of aging, what’s happening in our body that’s really preventing us from having the energy we used to. You’ve created a method that people can follow to counteract these effects through movement, through exercise and you call it the face method. What inspired you to create this? Like what’s the story behind it?

Dr. Vonda Wright (13:00)

Well, I’ve used the face method for 20 years. It was first published in one of my first books and I continue to use it with the modifications and new research that we’re doing today because it works. And here’s why. When we’re 20, we can get away with every frigging thing.

Brie Tucker (13:19)

Just to be able to go out, drink, bad food.

Dr. Vonda Wright (13:23)

And then you decide that, my goodness, I need to get more ship shape and you do very little change and then it’s all better, right? Yeah. That is not how adults play. That is child’s play. That is not adult. Adult play, takes a method. So FACE, and I always say, FACE your future. FACE stands for the components that I prescribe to people when I’m designing exercise programs for them.

Dr. Vonda Wright (13:53)

Where this fits in is of this four step approach to being unbreakable. The first is creating a vision. You cannot even know why you want to do the face method until you know why you want to feel better.

JoAnn Crohn (14:09)

So like when creating a vision, like if I was thinking of my life, just to have more energy to be less sluggish or to like participate with my kids and not have them deal with the same effects that I’m looking at now with my parents, that’d be kind of a vision.

Dr. Vonda Wright (14:27)

Yeah, visions are based on what you value, right? It sounds like you value feeling healthy. It sounds like you value maintaining your independence. like you value being present for your children, right? Yeah. And out of those values, you set the goals. You just said, I want to have energy. I want to age better. I want to be present. Okay. Those are the goals. Then, so that’s A. A vision. The next A.

JoAnn Crohn (14:39)

Yes.

Dr. Vonda Wright (14:57)

Take action. That’s where face comes in. If you just have a vision and no way to get there, then you’re just dead in the water. So F-A-C-E, it’s how I prescribe exercise. Because we can’t get away with child’s play anymore. F stands for flexibility and range of motion. ⁓

JoAnn Crohn (15:17)

Oh that’s a Big one!

Dr. Vonda Wright (15:20)

Have you ever seen the little lady or man shuffling down the street? No range of motion, their hips don’t move, their knees barely bend. Well, there’s a lot of contributing factors, but much of that is because we never stretched our muscles, tendons and ligaments back out to their normal length. Because the natural history of aging is that those get tighter and tighter and tighter. Sorry, tighter and tighter and tighter. So I have to stretch them out in order not to become all hunched over so that

Brie Tucker (15:24)

That’s my parents.

Dr. Vonda Wright (15:49)

That’s F, flexibility and range of motion every day. F-A is aerobic, right? We must continue to build our hearts. Heart disease is the number one killer of men and women in this country. But it cannot be what we did in the 80s, 90s and early 2000s, which is aerobic only all the time. It’s never gonna be enough. So stop with it.

Dr. Vonda Wright (16:18)

What I continue to see people gutting out aerobic, aerobic exercise in the orange theory zone. their. The ⁓ orange zone is fine. You’re working hard, but it’s not hard enough to make big change. That’s why people who do that all the time are so frustrated that they’re not recomposing their body.

Brie Tucker (16:26)

Yes!

JoAnn Crohn (16:41)

So wait, I want to dig into one thing you said. It’s hard, but it’s not hard enough to make big change. So like with the aerobic activity, how hard is it supposed to get? Does that mean make it harder or does that mean like… I’m about to tell you. Okay, I’m jumping ahead.

Dr. Vonda Wright (16:58)

It’s harder. If our goal is aging and longevity, keeping a big heart, we’re doing an 80-20 method. And this is how we train pro athletes. My day job is an elite orthopedic sports surgeon and performance person. This is how our exercise physiologists do this for pro athletes. 80 % of the time we’re in base, low base training heart rate. So think putting the twins in the stroller and doing a bob walk.

right? Bob, the double stroller thing walk. Because your heart rate is going to be up, you’re going to be briskly walking, but you’re not running, right? That is low heart rate based training. Three hours a week broken up into 45 minutes to 60 minute sessions, right?

two times a week or 20 % of the time, you’re gonna sprint. And it’s exactly what it sounds like. We’re gonna get our heart rates up as fast as they go. So if we’re given a mom example that I might’ve used, we’re wheeling the twins to the high school football field while they’re running around, you are running from one goal post to the other, getting your heart rate up as fast as possible. Now, it doesn’t have to be on a track. It can be on any apparatus that gets your heart rate up as high as it could possibly go, but only for 30 seconds. Don’t worry. It’s a 30 second sprint and you can skip, you can row, you can cycle, you can stair climb, whatever. Those are the two ends of aerobic with the sprinting, one of the key factors in recomposing your body. So that’s F-A-C is carry a load.

which is essentially weightlifting, right? So I find women don’t realize how strong they are, right? We’re picking up the little pink weights. We’re doing a lot of reps. But the reality is you probably have, if you have mothers in their 30s listening to this, you probably have a 30 pound toddler or a 30 pound five-year-old who you’re lifting up. Well, why are we doing that at home?

Dr. Vonda Wright (19:13)

and going to the gym and picking up the five pound weight. Why?

JoAnn Crohn (19:16)

True! Why the five bad weights? Why? And I want to take a little break there because I want to hear what we’re supposed to be doing instead right after this.

So before the break, we talked about the first methods of your face method, the flexibility and the mobility being F, making sure that you really stretch those tendons and muscles back to their appropriate length. The A, aerobic activity, not just the walking or the continuous running, but actually putting in that two times a week sprint. And then C, carrying a load. And you started talking about why are we doing these little tiny ass weights when we are lifting like bigger things at home. So like how much should women be lifting?

Dr. Vonda Wright (20:04)

Well, every woman gets to lift her own heavy, but here’s how you know. Okay. Because you probably have women in their early forties, 35s, and then you have older women like me in mid fifties and beyond. When we start lifting for strength and power, which is the longevity method, we have to pick up heavy weights because we want to be doing very low reps. And so everybody’s heavy is different.

But how we know it’s heavy enough is how many reps it takes us to fail. Meaning I can’t lift this thing one more time. If we’re lifting for bigger muscles, it’s called hypertrophy, the rep number to failure is about eight to 10, Four sets, three or four sets. When we’re lifting for strength and power, the rep…

range is three to six. I’ve chosen four because believe me, my people want me to tell them exactly what to do. Four reps, four sets. Here’s what it looks like. Yeah, of course. It’s easier when I tell you what to do. Yeah. So here’s an example. If you’re bench pressing, pushing the weight, right? Four reps means you can get the fourth one up there. You may be able to do five, but you are not doing six without dropping the end of the bar off, right? So

That’s how we know what failure means. But here’s what I want to assure your people. If you are someone who loves yoga and Pilates so much that you never so much as darken the mat on the weight floor, it can take you six, nine months a year to work your way up from body weight to light weights to hypertrophy to strength and power. So don’t worry, give yourself grace, but this is not a program.

This is a lifestyle. There is no expiration date on when you have to stop. So if it takes a year to lift heavy, fine, let it take a year to lift heavy. Because we have to learn how to do it safely. We have to let our bodies adjust, but it’s important that you do. So that’s FAC.

JoAnn Crohn (22:12)

Yeah, I want to talk about that curing a load too because you mentioned Pilates, which is my trigger word not trigger word But it’s something that I love I’ve gone into it a lot and I right now combine Pilates with the strength training that you talk about I Do Pilates at a studio and then I have an app on my phone I use the Peloton strength app which makes these little like 20 minute workouts for me And so I go into my home gym and my husband does Olympic weightlifting and so we have a lot of weights available. 

Dr. Vonda Wright (22:25)

How do you do that?

JoAnn Crohn (22:42)

Yeah. So I, I combine the two, but I hear all this stuff about Pilates being like, it’s harder to get those gains. I recently leveled up. No, you won’t get those gates, but I recently leveled up and I was really surprised at the amount of strength and power it takes for the higher levels of Pilates because you are trying to like push yourself into handstands using your core and like exercises. couldn’t even get to those muscles in a gym effectively, but the lifting for strength and power is

JoAnn Crohn (23:12)

definitely an essential component as well.

Dr. Vonda Wright (23:14)

Yeah, and I’m not saying don’t do it. I’m saying it should be the salt and pepper. It cannot be the entire meal. And I think Pilates is amazing for core. And I think it’s amazing for flexibility and range of motion, But the reason I take a stand like this, and it gets me some hate mail, is because it is so pleasureful that women who were never Pilates instructors take thousands of classes

JoAnn Crohn (23:27)

Yes.

Dr. Vonda Wright (23:41)

so many that they could become certified as instructors. And that’s fine. I’m not telling you to stop. I’m telling you to do what you’ve done, which is get stronger.

Brie Tucker (23:51)

Yeah. It can’t just be that. And I am your person that is out there listening for what is the shortest path I can take to be healthy. The least amount I can do and still be able to go to a music festival for an entire weekend and not have to down an entire bottle of ibuprofen. I mean, that’s where I’m at.

JoAnn Crohn (24:02)

What’s that?

Dr. Vonda Wright (24:14)

So what you’re saying is you are a true min-max person. Min-max. Min-max. You want to do the minimum for the maximum. Yes.

Brie Tucker (24:22)

Yes, I am.

JoAnn Crohn (24:23)

She admits it freely. ⁓

Dr. Vonda Wright (24:24)

⁓ my God.

Brie Tucker (24:27)

I admit that freely. Why why hide it? You know?

Dr. Vonda Wright (24:30)

This is not a program. This is a lifestyle. So when people go out with me and we’re in a restaurant and they see what I order at a restaurant, sometimes they’re like, we were interested to seeing what you’d order. We thought you’d let up for a night. I’m like, this is actually just what I eat. Yeah. I just eat this way. There’s not a program. This is standards of healthiness. So I don’t know that there’s been that.

Brie Tucker (24:54)

No, there isn’t. I’m pretty sure there isn’t. I’ve been looking for it. There’s no magic bullet. I gotta put in the work as I get older. But not anymore. That’s the point.

JoAnn Crohn (25:04)

The standards of healthiness though, you described Vonda, not letting off for a night on eating. I think that as having experienced this, as you start eating to fuel your body, I concentrate mostly on protein for my body. I realized that meals with heavy amounts of carbs make me feel horrible and sluggish afterwards. And I think that like, if you’re listening to this right now you’re like, my gosh, I couldn’t even change the way I eat. I want to tell you once you start changing, you’re gonna notice how food affects your body and you’re gonna be even just more likely to keep on with going in that healthy.

Dr. Vonda Wright (25:39)

You don’t want to feel bad. Exactly. do not want to feel like that again.

JoAnn Crohn (25:43)

Yeah, and you don’t even realize you feel like it until you change it and you’re like, what was I missing my entire like adult life?

Dr. Vonda Wright (25:51)

And I don’t want your crowd to think that there’s never a time when I eat stuff that I’m gonna regret in the morning. I mean, I don’t think you have to be so austere, but that’s exception, not the rule, right? Because you’re cool for it. I know that when I eat carbs that are simple, the next day I’m gonna be inflamed and stiff. It’s just, know that.

Brie Tucker (26:12)

Yeah. Don’t even get me started on drinking.

Dr. Vonda Wright (26:16)

Please not do that.

Brie Tucker (26:18)

Yeah, no, I mean, I don’t trust ⁓ my body beat you to it. My body doesn’t like drinking anymore. So it’s like, I can have maybe one cocktail every couple of weeks. And I know I’m going to pay for it later. Sorry. I love my margaritas.

JoAnn Crohn (26:38)

Well, so we’ve talked about the flexibility and mobility, aerobic activity, carrying a load, your last letter for face. Let’s talk about that one.

Dr. Vonda Wright (26:48)

It’s equilibrium and foot speed because you may be flexible. You may have a good cardiac engine. You may have built some muscle, but if you cannot balance and you fall down because you trip over the sidewalk or the curb or the bag next to your desk and you break a bone, that sucks. And if you break your hip, you have a 30 % chance of dying if you’re older when you do it.

JoAnn Crohn (27:09)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Vonda Wright (27:17)

I like to retrain all my people to be able to stand on one leg. That’s easy to do. And to keep our foot speed fast. Like we train our athletes to maintain their quick firing. We need to train our girls. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (27:33)

Yeah.

Brie Tucker (27:34)

would you get to the quicker foot speed? that like just going like at a faster pace on like a treadmill? Is it like going out there with the tires and like trying to do like, I remember that training, like jumping between the tires.

Dr. Vonda Wright (27:47)

Sometimes it’s using a little square and hopping in and out. I post a lot about this, little foot speed drills. I recently reintroduced hopscotch to the world.

JoAnn Crohn (27:59)

I was gonna say it!

Brie Tucker (28:01)

I’m like, I am so going out and drawing a hopscotch. I love hopscotch.

Dr. Vonda Wright (28:04)

It’s great for foot speed. It’s amazing for jumping and we’ve been doing it since we were little girls. So let’s just play.

JoAnn Crohn (28:11)

And the balance you have to have when you stand in one square on one foot and have to take the rock out of the other square. Yeah, that’s intense. That’s intense. So you’ve given us here a roadmap for the kind of exercise and movement that we need to put into our lives. Those flexibility and mobility, the aerobic activity, carrying a load, and now equilibrium and foot speed. Vonda.

It’s been so amazing talking to you. We like to end every interview with this. We want to know what are you looking forward to in your life?

Dr. Vonda Wright (28:46)

In what category?

JoAnn Crohn (28:48)

Any category ~

Brie Tucker (28:50)

We’re looking forward to your book. We know that it comes Next week.

Dr. Vonda Wright (28:56)

I’m looking forward to a best selling book, not only for my ego, but because you know what, I think that we have come a long ways in educating women about midlife perimenopause and menopause, but I still find that there’s a lot of confusion on how to live better longer. And so I’m looking forward to being at least 97 years old and getting to do what I want when I want it. And that’s not going to happen by chance. That’s going to happen by building this unbreakable lifestyle that we just talked about today.

JoAnn Crohn (29:28)

You speak to me in that because 98 doing what you want when you want it like it scares me growing old and not having that Mobility or that independence anymore. So go out and get Dr. Vonda Wright’s new book coming out August 25th If you are listening to this and it’s not yet August 25th, guess what? You can go pre-order it and it’ll be delivered to you when it comes out So go pre-order unbreakable

A Women’s Guide to Aging with Power. And Vonda, thank you so much for joining us here. It has been a pleasure.

Dr. Vonda Wright (30:04)

My pleasure. Thanks for having me.

JoAnn Crohn (30:06)

Remember the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you and I’ll talk to you later

Brie Tucker (30:11)

Thanks for stopping by

JoAnn Crohn (30:14)

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