Podcast Episode 420: Why Good Girls Gossip: Reclaiming Female Empowerment and Friendship Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

JoAnn Crohn (00:00)

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I’m your host JoAnn Crone, joined here by the brilliant Brie Tucker.

Brie Tucker (00:08)

Hello, everybody, how are you?

JoAnn Crohn (00:09)

We get to talk about something that we were told not to talk about in school and it’s gossiping. Gossiping. Were you ever called a gossip-ery?

Brie Tucker (00:19)

I don’t think I have to my face, but I do think I am a gossip. And you know what, honestly, my mom, I love you mom. You were such a gossip. I think whenever anything happens in our family, my mom will call one of us and she’ll be like, how are you doing? Okay, great. Have you talked to your sister? And then the story goes on.

JoAnn Crohn (00:45)

I have to say like my family is run on gossip as well. It’s like, what’s your aunt doing? did you hear what your cousins are doing over here? And what’s going on over here? So like there is a lot of gossip and it’s being passed down for generations through generation. And our interview today is why that gossip isn’t such a bad thing. It doesn’t need to be a shame filled thing. And to help us with that is Tova Leigh. She is a bestselling author and her newest book is called Good Girls Gossip.

She’s also a performer and content creator with a global following over over 2.1 million followers worldwide and is the mother to three daughters. So with that, let’s get on with the show.

Hello, hello. Welcome, welcome to the podcast. I enjoy following you online Tova because you have a lot to say about calling out those men who criticize all the women online. That’s not a good form of gossip. Tell us about that and what’s going on.

Tova Leigh (01:41)

Yeah, I started a few months ago. You know, because I don’t know, I keep seeing those posts of these gorgeous, amazing, successful women. And then there’s always a bunch of guys in the comments who have a lot to say. Someone just called, who was it? think Selena Carpenter, of Solid 3. So, know, exactly. All the chat.

JoAnn Crohn (02:02)

And the way she does it, Brie, if you’ve seen, she takes the comment and then she blows up the photo of the profile of the person who made the comment. ⁓ good girl. ⁓

Brie Tucker (02:14)

I was like trying to quietly think to myself like, mm, mm, it’s interesting that people that like to pick on other people’s looks typically are very insecure about their own, right?

Tova Leigh (02:25)

Exactly. no, to be honest, it just started as a like a little joke, but it sort of took off. I think I don’t know for a long time, somehow those guys were protected, you know, sometimes you see people put their names, but they cross the names out, you know, so I was like, No, I’m actually gonna put their names out there because it’s public comments. They were brave enough to put them out there for the public to see I’m only highlighting their

JoAnn Crohn (02:49)

They were brave enough to put them out You have to wonder the thought process that goes on when they decide to put that out there. I mean, do they think they’re contributing to society? Do they think like their opinion really needs to be heard? I’m not sure.

Tova Leigh (03:04)

Well, they do because I had one guy message me at some point that he saw his comment and he saw his face and he said, how dare you share my ideas.

Brie Tucker (03:15)

You’re like, wait a minute, you know, I’m a public account. Your comments were public. Like I think that’s a big deal that we sometimes forget online that like you just said, when you make a comment on a public account, you are now in the record of life. Right.

JoAnn Crohn (03:35)

Yeah.

Tova Leigh (03:37)

It works both ways, you know, because their argument is always, well, they’re a public figure, which means they’re fair game and you can say whatever you want about them. But then when it’s pointed at them, not so fair.

JoAnn Crohn (03:48)

They don’t like that anymore. It’s interesting because I got my major, my major was broadcast journalism. And so a lot was said about libel and slander. And I could see why a lot of those men were being protected because of fear of the retribution to come across. like as they are posting on public accounts, why are we protecting them? There is no need.

Tova Leigh (04:13)

Totally, and there is a big difference between messages I get privately. Those I can’t share annoyingly, and they know it, by the way. So I had a guy who made a very awful comment the other day. It was actually quite violent, but he put it publicly, so I highlighted it in my stories and I did a whole post about it. And then he messaged me privately. Yeah, and that I couldn’t share anymore, but so they know, you know, but it is what it is. ⁓

JoAnn Crohn (04:41)

And you can’t even share if you block out all identifying information.

Tova Leigh (04:46)

Yeah, if I shared, yeah, if I blocked out the information, of course. Yeah. So that’s fun.

JoAnn Crohn (04:51)

That’s a scary position to be in Tova like kind of aligning this with the whole gossip thing because I think that forever women have talked about these things in private and it was known in private all of these things that were going on and like men who are demeaning other women and you know the men to stay away from because you’ve heard it from your other women in the town or whatever thinking like back in history but the way we’re operating right now in our society is it’s almost like it’s a public forum and putting this gossip out in the public is kind of alerting everybody, if you will. You being kind of the alerter, how is that going for you in terms of protecting your own kind of sanity and mental health, having these things be said? How are you protecting yourself from that?

Tova Leigh (05:32)

Yeah. You know, actually, think sadly, I’m not in a unique position at all, because, you know, I think there isn’t a woman out there who hasn’t received her share of unsolicited dick pics or any type of like harassment, whether it’s online or on a bus. know, whether maybe I get it more or less doesn’t really matter. Like, I feel like that’s the whole point is to talk about it because it is actually very common, too common. And I actually think, you know,

I have a sense of purpose when I do it, which I guess has helped me kind of feel slightly more protected because I do it for a reason. And then I don’t take it personally because I’m like, well, I’m on a mission. Something like that.

JoAnn Crohn (06:25)

You’re on a mission.

Brie Tucker (06:28)

And I would also say there is a part of you that is kind of like taking it on so that others don’t get it as much. does that make sense? feel like.

JoAnn Crohn (06:38)

We’re normalizing it for others too, so they don’t attach the same meaning when they get it themselves. They’re like, this is happening everywhere.

Tova Leigh (06:47)

It’s funny because actually those videos with the guys, honestly, the initial intention for me wasn’t even so much… I don’t know. think what it was was more… You know how when you see people and they put negative comments in, especially about your appearance, you can really take it to heart? And I have some young people following me as well. And I do a lot of videos about body image and some of them are funny and some of them are serious.

So I often get like from younger girls say, this has really helped me and I’m wearing a swimming costume. I feel better about myself and stuff like that. but then, you know, someone said to me once, it’s really upsetting because I put this picture of myself and people were commenting about my body and body shaming me. And then I thought, do you know who those people are? And that’s kind of where it came from. I was like, can I just show you who actually leaves those comments?

I know like that’s a bit mean because I’m kind of making fun of what they look like, but it’s like, isn’t it ironic? Don’t you think type of thing? And that’s really where it came from. But then of course it kind of, I don’t know, I guess seeped into other other areas, you know.

JoAnn Crohn (07:53)

It reminds me of a quote that Brene Brown actually refers to a lot in her work. And I think the original quote was like Teddy Roosevelt or something where you don’t accept criticism from the people in the cheap seats. You only accept like the criticism from the people in the arena with you. Usually those people aren’t criticizing at all. Yeah, because all the cheap seats have all the opinions in the entire world and they’re not actually down there doing the things and putting themselves out there. Switching to your book.

Good girls gossip. I’m thinking there’s a story behind why you decided to talk about this subject matter. Is there like some event that you’re like, I need to show how gossip is beneficial to women and shouldn’t be a shameful thing?

Tova Leigh (08:38)

Again, I honestly think that if you just take the word gossip out here of the equation, because gossip is a word that’s very loaded and it has a lot of negativity attached to it, so it triggers people, but just put that on a shelf for a minute. I mean, we all know, women know, because there’s nothing more amazing than hanging out with your girlfriends and chatting. Like there’s nothing better, you know? So we all know it’s the place where you…

You know, you can be yourself, you can feel supported, empowered. You can, like you said, learn things, know things, hear all the secrets. This is our place. So for me, when I think about a single thing, no, it’s something that I’ve learned throughout my life. I’m going to be 50 next year, next month. And, know, I just know it now in my bones, the friendships that kind of like talking with women is…

It’s the thing that gets me excited every day, those friendships.

JoAnn Crohn (09:38)

It’s what we get to do here on the podcast every day. Some of what I like here, even though it’s recorded for everyone to say, mean, some of the best conversations actually happen when we’re not recording. just those are the good things. like, we’re like, well, it’s not public anymore. Let’s talk about this. And this form of information sharing, think is so important.

Tova Leigh (10:00)

And I get some pushback on that from women who’ve had negative experiences with other women in their lives. That does happen. There’s a lot of women who don’t feel like they’ve had good relationships with other women and they talk about the of like the catiness side and women kind of stabbing each other in the back and being competitive with each other. So I’m not denying that that doesn’t happen and that doesn’t exist. But I also believe that that’s a result of a conditioning.

JoAnn Crohn (10:29)

Yes.

Tova Leigh (10:29)

That we’ve all been under, you know.

Brie Tucker (10:32)

Right? That it’s okay to do. Right?

Tova Leigh (10:35)

or that that’s what we’re like. And I feel like we’ve come to believe it and behave in that way. And it’s all a big condition. And one of the things I do, I run a female empowerment retreats in the Algarve. And actually the book was born from these retreats because in the retreats, there’s basically around 18 or 20 of us women for five days. And it’s all amazing and this workshops and whatever we do, but there were so many women who hesitated to come on this retreat because the idea of being with 18 women…

JoAnn Crohn (11:11)

Because they’re afraid of the hidey-ness and stuff.

Brie Tucker (11:15)

Especially when you don’t know people, right? Like being afraid that that’s what you’re gonna walk into. Yeah.

Tova Leigh (11:20)

Exactly, are they going to judge me? Are they going to be bitchy? Are they going to be this or that? But actually, the opposite is what happens. Because when you’re in a safe space and when you really do put that as, okay, here’s what we’re doing, the circle of sisterhood, and suddenly all of that other bullshit just drops and you are just exchanging wisdom.

and you are just being there for each other. And it is the most uplifting, amazing, beautiful thing that I’ve seen. And I have had several women come out of there going, wow, I used to so dislike women and I fucking love them now. This is amazing. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (11:58)

That I have seen happen in all female environments too. So after this, we are going to dig into how gossip can be an empowering thing rather than a negative.

So before the break, Tova, you were talking about how many women come to your retreats and are afraid of the catty environment, but when they get there, it’s so empowering. And I’ve seen that too. I used to be a Girl Scout Camp counselor in my high school years. And that environment with just women and talking about like raising women up, it was the best work environment I have ever had. There was none of that competition. There was no degrading of others, it was really just making sure everyone was uplifted. And that’s the environment we have in our retreats too, our No Guilt Mom retreats. But I could see this catty environment and I could see like how it starts and how people get affected by it. Right now, for instance, I’m privy to some information, so I won’t go into too many details, but it’s happening in high school where one girl keeps repeatedly talking about another girl over and over regardless of how many times the girl who’s being talked about addresses this person directly. And I think it’s that sort of behavior that gives gossip a bad name, this whole thinking of talking behind someone’s back. So like, what have you seen in this Tova in terms of like, how could we as women kind of call this behavior out or how could we go about it so that I don’t want to say it doesn’t happen because that’s impossible, but we can minimize it among groups of women.

Tova Leigh (13:43)

So it’s funny that you bring up high school because yeah, I think that what I was talking about earlier, the conditioning does start actually very early on. doesn’t, it’s not like you were suddenly, you know, you’re a woman and you’re gossiping. It starts from somewhere. And I don’t know if you know the theory of the 80-20. Do you know the 80-20?

JoAnn Crohn (14:01)

Yeah, the Pareto’s Principle. Get 20 % of the results from…

Tova Leigh (14:05)

No, so no, 80 % of the women want to date 20 % of the men. Oh, yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (14:11)

⁓ I hadn’t heard that one.

Tova Leigh (14:13)

Yeah. And like that, even if you didn’t know it directly, somehow in your psyche, you knew that because that’s what, you know, the patriarchy has told you from when you were little. And obviously you were also told from when you were little that the goal is to find that one man. basically you’re competing on 20 % every single woman out there is you’re in competition with. And it’s so deep. It’s so deep.

Tova Leigh (14:41)

We don’t even see it or know it or realize it, but that’s what it is, I think at least. And so I think it does start very, very young. I am raising three girls and I hear them and they’re like still very little. You know, I’ve got a 14 year old, a 12 year old, and they sometimes come home and sort of say, you know, stuff like, well, she’s a mean girl or this one or that one. Cause also it’s their programs.

Like I see what they watch on TV and there’s always like the mean girl, the thingy-de-bobby. So all those stereotypes, it’s just everywhere. We’re just taught that this is what it is. And I have to push back and talk about a different narrative and how, and so it is education, talking, setting an example, just like when you think about how you talk about your body in front of your kids. So maybe think about how you talk about other women in front of your kids. You know, stuff like, yeah, stuff like that.

Brie Tucker (15:35)

I mean, I never really thought of it in that analogy. And that makes really good sense about how we talk about other people, especially other women, has a direct impact on how our kids view how that conversation goes in the future.

JoAnn Crohn (15:52)

It’s crazy too, because I will get in conversations with my 16 year old daughter and she will be complaining about another woman. And inside, like I have a very, basically I was ditched by some friends in high school and they were definitely doing the mean girl stereotype or whatever. But I’ve learned throughout the years that like that is something that’s socialized and not everybody is great at communicating and all those things. So she’ll come to me and she’ll be complaining about this other girl and it takes everything in me not to be like, okay, there’s a lot going on here because when I try that, my daughter’s like, mom, you are not on my side here. You are not being.

Brie Tucker (16:30)

Been there, there. They us to be their ride or die, even when we’re like, dude, you’re not exactly in the right here. Right?

JoAnn Crohn (16:37)

Yeah. Yeah.

But it’s like also reframing those conversations for our daughters. It’s really hard to be the change because I mean, we were just talking, Bri and I, how we’ve seen our parents gossip. And I mean, I saw a lot of gossip growing up that was not exactly wonderful towards another person. And when you see that as an example, you think that, okay, there always has to be some odd girl out so you could be safe.

Because that’s where it comes to, feel like insecurity. mean, do you see that too? Am I wrong? 

Tova Leigh (17:13)

No, I totally agree. And I also think that when it comes to gossip, I mean, we haven’t touched on, you know, my book’s obviously called Good Girls Gossip, but to be clear, it is not a guide to how to gossip. That is not what the book is about. And, you know, the title, it’s not even about gossip per se, because obviously I talk about the history of the word gossip and why we want to reclaim it. I want to reclaim it, at least, and I can go into that.

JoAnn Crohn (17:25)

Yeah, no, no.

Tova Leigh (17:41)

Of course, when you talk horrible things about other people, make up stories or talk shit about them, that is an unkind thing to do, period. So it’s definitely not what I’m talking about in the book.

JoAnn Crohn (17:54)

No, but I do want you to get into the history of gossip because that was fascinating.

Tova Leigh (17:59)

Yeah, I mean, I didn’t even know it myself. And I was writing a book about female empowerment, again, just taking from everything that all the other stuff that I do and the retreats and stuff. you know, topics from, you know, body image to needs and pleasure and boundaries and shame and all those things. And I came across this idea that actually the word gossip originated from somewhere totally different and didn’t mean what it means today. And it meant in a nutshell, it meant close female friendships. So all these spaces and places, yeah, all these spaces and places that women would gather and chat. So it could be in the delivery room, when, you know, they were having babies or all these places. And it was really just about that kind of like bond that women have. But then over the years, it got kind of like vilified and well as a way to exactly to silence women, which isn’t so surprising. This is a story we know. So shame is often used as a tool to silence women. And it even still happens today. And there are so many examples throughout history where women were shamed into literally not speaking and not not speaking badly about people, but just not speaking at all.

Brie Tucker (19:18)

The whole like you’re meant to be seen and not heard. Like I know that that’s like taken towards children, but women. Yeah, especially. then JoAnn, like you and I have conversations about this all the time. And I think it comes along the same lines as the gossip. So women getting together, that’s a problem because bad things are going to happen from that. You can’t let them get too empowered. And now it gossip has gone into a negative. It’s like, JoAnn, you and I talk about all the time about how a woman who is assertive and knows what she wants to say and doesn’t take the low bar is considered bitchy. Yeah. of times, right. Or know it all or whatever. Like all these bad terms, because somebody is like, Hey, this is my thoughts and I’m going to hold to a standard. I think it’s wrong.

Tova Leigh (20:07)

And even, you know, it’s been done subtly in some places and less subtle in other places. Even when you think about humor, there’s so many jokes that are told about women who don’t shut up and like, we’re like this or like that. The husband that just like goes, uh-huh. Where the woman’s like, mean, again, a conditioning that’s basically taught us the most ironic thing in all of this is that this really is our superpower.

not gossip per se, but actually that we are master communicators. is women’s like superpower. And it is the one thing that’s just been, you know, been tried to sort of like silence. So for me, that idea felt like an amazing way to tie everything else up together in that book. Because like I said, it’s when women sit together in a circle, in a space, wherever amazing things happen, period.

JoAnn Crohn (21:07)

It’s so interesting that you say it’s the superpower because first of all, like I wonder, is it the superpower because we’re socialized that way? And I feel like it is, but and also like how it’s been villainized against us. Like I could tell you it was my mom, my dad and my sister. So my dad was the only male in the whole house. And when we all disagreed with him, he went into this little rant that he’s so head packed. my gosh, I am so head packed and being told what to do.

As the snarky person I am, I’m like, dad, go be quiet, go over there. Because no one wants to hear that.

Brie Tucker (21:45)

Especially when he’s saying it in a way to, I understand he was frustrated in the moment and your dad is a great guy, but he said it in a way to make you guys feel bad for talking.

JoAnn Crohn (21:56)

Yeah, for feel bad for having opinions for feel bad for disagreeing. And I think it hits a nerve in a lot of people that it causes them to be quiet. Because also another tactic that’s used against women, which I mean, now Tova you’re kind of exposing these guys do is insult the woman’s looks so she doesn’t appear and give her voice to anything. And I see it I see it time and time again. So right after this, we’re going to talk about how to reduce some of that shame around gossip and we’ll get to that after this break.

So Tova, talking about the whole gossip thing and knowing that, you know, us talking and us communicating, it’s our superpower. It’s not a bad thing. What would you say to a woman who is kind of scared about putting her own ideas and communications out there because she’s afraid that this thing is going to be thrown back at her? That, you know, gossip is bad.

Tova Leigh (22:52)

Yeah, so I mean, you know, it is going to be thrown back in.

Brie Tucker (23:00)

I think what I’m hearing is that the first thing is to be prepared for the pushback because it’s coming.

Tova Leigh (23:05)

But I think honestly, I’m sorry, I sound like a broken record. acknowledge this, but like I said, for me, it’s all about find your crew. There was a lady that came to one of the retreats as she was from Canada and she messaged me about a month after I think she came back from the retreat and said to me, know, I went back to my hometown and I was looking for women’s circles.

I wanted to be part of a woman’s circle because I see the value so much in it and I couldn’t find a woman’s circle. I couldn’t find, they just don’t exist. So I created one. And I was like, yeah, exactly that. Create your circle, create that kind of, you know, and again, for a lot of women, they don’t have that. And it’s so important to have that, to have your network of girlfriends because they’re going to be the ones that kind of like want to hear what you have to say. They’re going to be the ones that cheering you on.

That’s my medicine.

JoAnn Crohn (24:01)

Finding your circle is a hard thing, but yeah, go ahead, Brie.

Brie Tucker (24:04)

No, that’s exactly what I was going to say. If you don’t have anybody trying to create a circle is very, and I’m a very outgoing person that would intimidate the hell out of me. So like, how would you even get started on that? If you’re like, okay, I know I got to find people. I know I got to make it my crew. I know I got to find a circle, but it’s not here. How do you suggest a woman would get started with something like that? What’s like a little step they could make to move in that direction?

Tova Leigh (24:31)

So I’m very outgoing as well. I usually just come up to, it’s like, it’s quite lame, but I come up to the women I meet, like I’ll meet someone. I don’t know, I went to a birthday brunch the other day with some, with a friend and there was lots of women there who are amazing and interesting, but I clicked with one of them. So I just told her I liked her and could we be friends? No, but do you know what I mean? Like it’s, it’s like, it’s so silly, but you know, yeah, I did it. Why not? But I understand that.

For some people, maybe you feel a bit less, or less outgoing, that’s hard. So the lady who I told you about from Canada, I think she did something initially on Facebook and sort of got, I guess, a response. I suppose through… different communities, whether it’s like if you’re active in your kids’ school or maybe in your church or whatever you’re into, you know. But it is hard. Like I know it’s not easy, especially if you’re a shy person or more of an introvert. It’s not easy for sure. But I guess the first thing is maybe to see if things do exist out there because there are things out there. I live outside Lisbon and there’s so many of these kind of like women’s circles and different opportunities, but you do have to go.

JoAnn Crohn (25:44)

You have to go and you have to find it. It can be intimidating. mean, like Bri and I have been friends for many, many, many years. I mean, it’s going on 12 years now. use that. That’s our daughters, our seniors we met when they were kindergarten, because we were volunteering together in the classroom. And then our whole circle kind of broadened from there. But like now I work from home. I’m in my cellar all day long and I miss talking with people. And so I’m looking at like these other groups and stuff I can join and there are, there are there out there. Like there’s a running group. I’m a mountain biking coach with my son’s team, but it’s like a lot of it is connected with your kids when you’re a mom, because you’re finding people who are at the same life stage as you, which is hard. It’s hard, but it’s not impossible for sure.

Tova Leigh (26:32)

No. No, how old are your kids,?

JoAnn Crohn (26:36)

I have a 16 year old and a 12 year old. Yeah. And we’re getting to the point now where, course, you when kids get older, they don’t need you around as much, nor should you be as involved as much in the school as when they’re younger. And so you’re looking for those other opportunities and other places to actually meet friends at your same life stage. So it’s a weird, it’s a weird area for sure.

Tova Leigh (27:00)

Well, you mentioned also the retreat that you run, ⁓ places like that. Again, if you, if you have the financial means to go on stuff like that, that’s a really good place because I also feel like in those environments, you also get to connect with people deeper, faster. Yeah, because you’re going through a shared experience and there’s this openness and everybody’s just a bit more open.

Brie Tucker (27:19)

Yes. yeah.

Well, and you’re also able to limit those outside factors too, right?

JoAnn Crohn (27:32)

You don’t have the interruptions. Yeah.

Brie Tucker (27:34)

Like, try and take care of the kids, why you’re trying to work on yourself and your own relationships. You actually have the time dedicated to what you are interested in and what you want to achieve.

JoAnn Crohn (27:45)

But it’s so interesting, and I want to hear, Ktova, if this is true with your retreats too, convincing women to go someplace without their kids is very difficult. A lot of women push back against it. Actually, we purposely made our retreat at an adult-only resort so that people could not bring their kids because there’s a separation when you have your kids around, you’re thinking about their happiness, and you’re also putting effort into you. But I could see the other thing where kids are just a part of our lives and having that communal atmosphere with raising them is a great thing as well. So just like what’s been your experience seeing how women are with their kids and without their kids?

Tova Leigh (28:26)

So there’s a few things here for younger women who still have younger kids. It is definitely a major factor. Quite a lot of the women who come on my retreats are slightly older, so they’re in a different place in their lives. Their kids are a little bit older and so they’re very ready to sort of go and do things for themselves. But I also find that it’s also not sometimes the struggle to, you know, to go and do this isn’t even just because of the kids. It’s this kind of like not necessarily feeling that you deserve it or that you have earned it or that you’re the money that you’re going to invest. But I could have done this or that with that. Is it OK for me to spend that money on myself? Like, is it selfish? So it’s not so much about the kids. It’s just more about the bigger picture of like whether or not is it OK for me to prioritize me and invest all that money in me? Yeah. So I do see that. I do see that. But I love it. Do you know what? I’m in awe.

in awe of the women who sign up and come to my retreat because it is not, or your retreat, any retreat, because it’s not, it’s a big freaking thing. It’s big, it’s massive, and they come alone and they travel across the ocean to go and they pay a lot of money and it’s amazing and I am so in awe of it and so many of them actually come.

After they’ve literally been up, it’s like three o’clock in the morning, I was having a hot flush and I just opened Instagram and there was your post and I went, fuck it. And it’s like the best three o’clock in the morning decision, so many of them, it just makes me laugh. Because the thing is, your rational brain is gonna do everything to convince you not to take that flight, not to book the holiday, not to buy the dress, not to…

It’s always the same thing and you have to sometimes go by that real heart impulse the calling of like no I need to do this I need to be there and just do it and say fuck it

JoAnn Crohn (30:30)

Sometimes your rational brain will try to convince you to do otherwise, like 100 % of the time. It’s true. Well, Toba, I love this conversation, especially talking about how women can like find that group of people, how we can reclaim the word gossip to really like hone in on what we’re good at, which is communication. We like to end every episode like this on a positive note. So what is something in your life that you are looking forward to?

Tova Leigh (30:57)

So I’m turning 50 next month, as I said, I cannot wait. Thank you to turn 50. I can’t wait. And I’ve got a trip with my girlfriends to Ibiza exactly two weeks from today. And I cannot wait. ⁓

JoAnn Crohn (31:10)

Amazing. ⁓ my gosh, that does sound amazing. We need a girl strip to Ibiza Brie

Brie Tucker (31:23)

well actually, because I turned 46 years soon, so we got four years to plan. 50th birthday getaway for us, JoAnn, for us.

JoAnn Crohn (31:33)

Yes, exactly. Absolutely. Well, Tova, thank you so much for being here with us and for everyone out there. Remember, the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you. Go to Ibiza. And we’ll talk to you later.

Brie Tucker (31:47)

Thanks for stopping by.

JoAnn Crohn (31:50)

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