Podcast Episode 416: Screen Time Without Guilt: How to Help Your Family Use Tech in a Healthy Way Transcripts

Please note: Transcripts for the No Guilt Mom Podcast were created using AI. As a result, there may be some minor errors.

JoAnn Crohn (00:00)

Welcome to the No Guilt Mom podcast. I am your host JoAnn Crohn here with the brilliant Free Tucker.

Brie Tucker (00:07)

Hello, hello, everybody  how are you?

JoAnn Crohn (00:10)

We get to delve in today, Brie, something that comes up as a question so much in our balance community and in the No Guilt Mom community with moms. It’s screen time. Screen time, screen time.

Brie Tucker (00:21) 

and from my background of being in early childhood and everything, this is a question that every parent has. Not just in No Guilt Mom community, but I mean, even people that are working with families and working in parenting, we know that the recommendations we’re giving are not solid because this is a whole new world, whole new world and technology is so fast.

JoAnn Crohn (00:44)

There’s so much shame around it too. And there’s so much information out there, especially like popular books that have gained attention, such as the anxious generation, I know puts like a huge thing on screen time. So that if you were just to go online, you’d be like, my gosh, I’m a horrible parent. If I’m letting my kids on screens and how can I get them off screens? And it’s ruining their life and all like this whole rabbit hole you could go into of shame and guilt.

Brie Tucker (01:07)

I would almost say like where there’s a people seem to think that they have the right to judge other people on their screen usage. mean, honestly, look at it people were getting a glimpse, a glimpse of a screen relationship with other families when we see them. It’s never the full story. I would hate for anybody to judge me on a snap second with my parenting.

JoAnn Crohn (01:29)

So we have an episode for you today that is going to put you at ease when it comes to screen time and give you a few things that you might be able to include guilt free in your kids screen time as well. We’re talking with Ash Brandin, EDS, who is in their 15th year of teaching middle school. Known on Instagram as the gamer educator, Ash’s experiences with technology and classroom management are the secret sauce that help caregivers navigate the world of screen time with consistent.

Loving Boundaries. They are the author of the new bestselling book Power On, Managing Screen Time to benefit the whole family. And we are so excited to dive into this conversation. So let’s get on with the show.

Welcome Ash to the podcast. We are so excited to have this conversation because screen time is on the mind of so many parents.

Ash Brandin (02:21)

I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for having me and I can’t wait to delve in.

JoAnn Crohn (02:26)

Yeah, because it is so guilt inducing and your book Power On, I was reading through it this morning and you start with this amazing interaction that happened with your three year old right during the pandemic. Tell us about that.

Ash Brandin (02:44)

Yes. So I had already been kind of in this world. hadn’t started my Instagram account yet, but I had definitely been in this world of, you know, tech and education and kind of thinking about it differently. And very soon after we all went home, I was attempting to teach my social studies class of seventh graders to like 30, 12 and 13 year olds. ⁓ We’re all kind of logging on at the same time. And my then three year old was home with me and my spouse had already been working from home and continued to work from home, but works in a really technical field. I can’t like start and stop with attention, which was fine. Like I knew we were clear about that. And I went into that being like, okay, I have this lesson. It’s like 20 minutes. It’s not even that long. What am I going to do? And I set up this like fine motor skill activity that I’m pretty sure I probably saw on Instagram where they were like getting Easter eggs out of a bin with a spoon And each one was like a jelly bean, which like says a lot because I was like, here, eat like 50 jelly beans for the course of 20 minutes. Hey man, there is Whatever it takes, right? And of course, like my kid is three in their own house, right? Why would they think this is any different? They wouldn’t because it’s not to them. Yeah. And it shouldn’t have been. And I was like, it’ll be fine. And I want to say that it took maybe at most 10 seconds to actually trying to teach.

Ash Brandin (04:08)

with all these kids in the room before my kid off screen starts like yelling my name. My parent name is muffin saying like muffin. I found a jelly bean, a jelly bean. I’m like, no, no, this is not how this is supposed to You’re supposed to be quiet.

Brie Tucker (04:25)

Were all the middle schoolers like just busting out laughing? Cause like I would think to a middle schooler hearing muffin would make them be like, okay. It’s almost like the bark sound that they.

Ash Brandin (04:37)

They couldn’t see my kiddo. So I think it was just like, it became quickly chaotic. And so then I’m like, you know, I’m muting myself. I’m shushing my kid. I’m trying to get their attention back. And I could already feel that I was getting frustrated, but I’m getting frustrated at my three year old for being a three year old in their own house. Right? Like a unreasonable reaction for me thinking about like the reality of what was going on with my kid. And as things clearly were not going to get back on the rails. My spouse sort of opened the door to the office and sort of ran into the room, through our tablet and headphones at my child. And then like ran back out and my kiddo put their headphones on and started playing on their fire tablet that we had like pre-downloaded some stuff. I knew it all be safe. And my first feeling was like, I failed. My first feeling was like, well,

Ash Brandin (05:33)

I shouldn’t have needed to use a screen because it was for me. And that was a very telling and crystallizing moment for me because I thought, well, wait a minute, the other adult in this household didn’t have an ounce of issue with using a screen to get a need met. Why am I doing this to myself? And it really made me think about the way that we talk about screens. We’ll often say screens are tools. And I think we really mean that as screens are tools for kids. And I think, there’s tools for kids to learn or engage or, you know, something academic or enriching. And I don’t think we’re as likely to say that screens are a tool for us. But in that case, it’s like, well, if I had not, or if my spouse had not used a screen as a tool, what would have happened? Like, yeah, I would have gotten more frustrated. My students wouldn’t have gotten the education they needed. My kiddo would have been getting increasingly snapped at for being three in their house, right? Like, not doing, no one’s doing anything wrong here.

So if I had not used a screen, like, or if we had not used a screen, it’s not like that would have been a better situation. Everyone would have ended up worse off. And so in that moment, I was like, ⁓ okay, if screens were a tool that I get to utilize, then that can also improve the life of my kid, right? They’re getting a more regulated parent. My students are getting to learn with my full attention. I am getting my full attention where I need it to be. Maybe this is what it means when we say screens are tools. And that was a very like reframing moment for myself.

JoAnn Crohn (07:01)

You’re absolutely right. Like all of the guilt too that we put on ourselves because I have thought from time to time, especially when my kids were younger that, my gosh, I should be able to do this without a screen. Why aren’t I able to do this? Not even giving any importance or like justification to, hey, I have a job I’m trying to do. I have like… focus I need to maintain because nothing makes you worse at your job when your focus is pulled every five minutes by your child needing something.

Brie Tucker (07:32)

And let’s add in that frustration that you’re feeling. Like nothing can make it harder for you to do it when you’re not only being pulled in different directions, but you’re also feeling your blood pressure rise. You’re already at that agitated state. mean, at least for me, we know that Bre has a short fuse. When I’m frustrated, I don’t have a lot with it. So yeah, I would not be able to get anything that I don’t. I don’t. Yeah, I don’t.

JoAnn Crohn (07:57)

Well, you open your book, Ash, by saying that the right amount of screen time is what benefits your whole family. So like, how did that instance shape what you did the rest of the pandemic when you were teaching online and you had to entertain your three year old?

Ash Brandin (08:13)

Yeah, that actually ended up starting a big part of like the relationship that my kid has with screen time even now is that that allowed me to say, well, you know, I don’t teach every single day synchronously online at that time. So I still think I could utilize this half an hour because at that point that was like kind of our only break, right? We really weren’t going anywhere. Right. So every day from like 11 to 1130 before we lunch, they started having 30 minutes of tablet time. And again, it was like, I’m still around, right? I could see what they’re doing. I vetted all the things, but it was 30 minutes also for me to do what I needed to do, which may have been emails or catching up with a student and it may have been vacuuming and it may have been making lunch and just getting some of that stuff done. sometimes it was like, I’m gonna sit and scroll my phone because also like it’s okay to just have a break. Like leisure is also valid and that’s also a valid use of.

JoAnn Crohn (09:11)

It’s valid, yes. You don’t have to be productive all the time.

Ash Brandin (09:13)

Right.

Right. And that goes for kids too, right? If people are like, but were they playing something educational and enriching? It’s like, look, I’m not saying we want people to do whatever on screens without any sort of supervision, but like, it’s also okay for them to just have fun. Right? Like that’s fine too. Everybody deserves leisure. And so that was, we really started that becoming such a consistent part of our day. And that half an hour was a huge reset for us because then I was able to come into lunch and the afternoon with my kiddo having made a meal that wouldn’t have been possible otherwise, being more present and regulated. And so my kid was benefiting because I was getting some needs met, therefore I could show up and be a better parent for my child. And I just don’t think that’s a way that we’re often thinking about it when we think about screen time.

JoAnn Crohn (10:04)

Absolutely not. Yeah, here at No Guilt Mom, we talk about the best mom being a happy mom. So like getting needs met, like that is the way that you could show up as a parent and using screens as a tool to do that. It totally makes sense. You mentioned a little bit there about the leisure time and the games. And this is something that is not talked about a lot when it comes to screen time, because you always hear that, it’s the content and everything has to be educational if you’re on screens. And I want to dig into that right after this.

So Ash, in your book, you describe yourself. You, as an educator, had been using games a lot in the classroom. You’d been using them to engage students. You saw an uptick in some of your elective courses because of the way you were using games in the classroom. And now you’re talking about games and as it relates to kids’ screen time. How can games benefit kids over educational programs online?

Ash Brandin (11:06)

Yeah, when I was doing things in the classroom, a lot of it was more like incorporating the sort of structures and functions of games into the classroom as opposed to like literal game based learning, bringing in games, but sometimes it was both. And when I would do actual game based learning, like here is a video game we’re going to look at or interact with, almost never was it an educational game whose purpose was to educate. And this is something that people are reasonably kind of confused by because we think that, ⁓ educational quote unquote educational content must be better. And we are now kind of past the era of educational content reaching a certain threshold, right? Like shows on PBS that are being made with researchers and educators are obviously a different thing, but there’s no regulation about how we’re deciding if something’s educational or not. So when it comes to apps and games in the app store, people can slap whatever they want on there. It’s like saying all natural. It’s very similar.

Brie Tucker (12:11)

Like it’s, when you say educational, it’s like, yes, we taught your child how to follow a response and hit a button that. And I’m not arguing to say that all games are bad. I am doing the exact opposite, but I do want to throw one thing in there that you’re talking about that made me think about this. when our generation, I’m going to be 46 here in a month, our gaming experience, educationally growing up with basically the Oregon trail.

Brie Tucker (12:38)

And I want to say, like, I didn’t love the Oregon Trail. I enjoyed it over a lecture from my teacher, but it boring as heck.

Ash Brandin (12:47)

Yeah. And what’s really funny is that educational games rarely are actually psychologically set up the same way that entertainment games are because entertainment games have to make you want to keep going for its own sake, right? Like, so they have to make it compelling and they have to make you want to play and they honestly have to be hard.

Brie Tucker (13:10)

They have to make you think.

Ash Brandin (13:12)

Right if they don’t have a challenge, you’re going to be like, well, this is a waste of my time, right? Like they have to be compelling with making you feel in control or skilled. It’s not just like flashy graphics or whatnot. And a lot of educational games end up doing the opposite because if they made it too hard and integrated, you would say no because it would be kind of overwhelming. And so they have to instead to ensure the kids will keep going. They make the educational asks very low. Like you’re talking about, they make it like, Fill in the blank or multiple choice. It’s things you can brute force your way through, right? Just like keep pressing buttons. And then what they end up doing is they end up rewarding kids with some sort of, often some sort of like actual game component. Like, if you answer these math questions, now you can do some fun thing. exactly. And that’s not how entertainment games work, right? Like if you were to boot up a

.

Ash Brandin (14:11)

even like a Mario game, right? Like if you were playing through a level and you like successfully jumped over a fire pit and it was like, good job, here’s 10 points. You’d be like, my God, was infantilizing. You wouldn’t do it.

JoAnn Crohn (14:24)

The challenge is jumping over the fire pit. It’s like failing 10 times and then be like, if I get right here to the edge and then press the A button and then boom, I’ve passed.

Ash Brandin (14:32)

Yes, exactly. And what I think is also really interesting is, and I bring this up in the book, that the audience who’s being marketed to when it comes to making educational content is not kids. It’s the parents. Right. It’s the parents. And because the parents are the ones buying it. The parents are the ones who are to buy it. So the best educational games are ones that really feel much more like you’re playing because that’s how learning actually takes place. Like we talk about play-based learning all the time and how play is the learning of childhood when kids are really little. And yet when we look at games that we hope are gonna be academic or educational, what would an average adult think that would look like? Worksheets, right? Like answers, fill in the blanks.

That’s really, really low level, right? if a kid were to get something wrong or correct, honestly, that doesn’t actually tell you if they know why it’s right or wrong, right? Whereas a lot of entertainment games are going to involve more of that experimentation because it’s not as focused on the output and it’s more focused on the experience. And so you can often find a lot of great crossovers or at least look to what I think is really important is to look to the skill.

that your kid is working on. the skill may be like something super abstract, but if you notice that your kid, I don’t know, in the middle of fighting an enemy suddenly changes their weapon, right? Like even that, we could say like, how did you know to do that? What did you notice? Why were you reacting that way? Because that there is a skill of strategic thinking or taking an input or like receiving feedback and adjusting what you do. And if I come in going, well, video games are a waste of time, right? I am not gonna notice those things. So a big part of the book is talking about being neutral so that we can notice things like this. Cause if I notice this, I can then make my kid notice that. And then that also helps me make it so that my child might go, ⁓ I thought I was only good at playing Super Smash Brothers, but it turns out actually,

JoAnn Crohn (16:45)

It’s building these strengths.

Ash Brandin (16:48)

Exactly. And then kids are seeing, ⁓ I actually could have like, just as I made that split decision in Super Smash Bros, I can do the same thing when I’m playing hockey and suddenly the scores change and other players come in and I can react the same way. And when we view it neutrally, we can help them see the crossover into other parts of their lives, which helps them kind of get out of that siloed view of it. Like it all works together when we can kind of come in with new traps.

Brie Tucker (17:14)

What I’m hearing is we get to actually help our kids find the education in any aspect and activity that they’re doing.

JoAnn Crohn (17:23)

I wanna put the like brakes a little bit on this about finding the education in every activity, because there is a point where, I mean, get this with my kids too, I do try to find the education in every activity and they get real tired of it. So it’s like, there is like a little boundary, I think, between making everything educational. And I could before what you were saying with like leisure, allowing that space for fun. A lot of moms today, I know we talk with, don’t know what they find fun anymore.

I think that one of the things that we do to our kids, we kind of pass this along, is we try to make their things not fun and educational. No, I mean it thinking that like we need to be protective and educational.

Brie Tucker (18:05)

I’m laughing at the reality of it. But it can squash the fun faster than an adult trying to find the textbook educational aspects of something.

Ash Brandin (18:16)

That is a really good point. And yes, I’m glad you said that because I think the asterisk I would put on that early example is that sometimes a lot of this is our own observation. And sometimes it’s like tucking it away for later. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Where it’s like, I can survey and like kind of vaguely take note of these things. And that doesn’t mean in the moment I have to be like, did you see that right there? No, that’s what you’re thinking. That was so good.

Brie Tucker (18:41)

And JoAnn knows it. I would be non- would I not? I’d be like, who just did XYZ? And then they’re all like, like they’re like, yeah, I’m done.

JoAnn Crohn (18:52)

A big thing though that comes from this is the aspect of motivation. Because as a teacher, one of the great methods to teach with is to use metaphors and drawing comparisons between things. So like you said, Ash, with they’re playing a hockey game and they might not know what to do next, or maybe they’re down, comparing that to their success in video games really shows them how, yes, they do have the skills and builds their confidence as well. So I think it’s a really powerful.

Ash Brandin (19:18)

 Yeah, And sometimes, you know, we talk about trying to, you know, connect with kids and make sure we’re talking to them about their interests. And I think especially if we’re not someone who is maybe feeling as literate in things like video games or screens, I can feel hard. So even if it’s just maybe tucking something away and going like, I see you’re working on something today. Like, what was that? Right? Just you even using it as a way of having a conversation or wow, like I saw you kept working at that today until you finally did it. That’s amazing. Have you been working on that a long time? Just a way of just bringing it in. And we don’t have to make it a whole, like I’m dragging out my soapbox to talk about all the value.

JoAnn Crohn (19:59)

Ted talk on video games. Let me give you point one, two and three.

Ash Brandin (20:02)

Right.

But it’s a way of showing our kids that we notice and we care. Right. And making it clear to them that, maybe I don’t literally sit down on the couch and play with you, but like, still care that you are interested in this because I care about you. And that goes a long way. Yeah.

JoAnn Crohn (20:19)

That does  go a long way. That is my sudden interest in football. is why I like just being interested in what kids like. mean, my son just asked me the other day if he can get mad in 26. That is his current video game of choice. That’s what he likes to play. I have no idea how he plays it because I really don’t really know the ways of football so much asking lots of questions though.

Ash Brandin (20:40)

Just like I do with students who play actual sports, I know nothing about. Right? Like I know nothing about lacrosse.

Brie Tucker (20:47)

That’s what I was thinking! that was my thing.

JoAnn Crohn (20:49)

We don’t have that in Arizona. We don’t have it. Yeah.

Ash Brandin (20:54)

If a student plays lacrosse, I’m still gonna ask. I’m gonna be like, what position do you play? I don’t even know if there are positions. Like, you a cheat? Like, I will show interest.

Brie Tucker (21:02)

The stick with the net?. Is that like called your stick? Like what?

Ash Brandin (21:09)

Right. Just as we do that with their in real life interests, right? We can do the same with their on screen interests.

JoAnn Crohn (21:15)

My question’s about football. I’m like, so what position does Travis Kelce play again? Mom, stop talking about that. You don’t know. You know, I show how uninformed I am just by knowing one player. I’m getting better though. One thing that we want to do now, Ash, is let parents know how they can use this, how they could put it into their daily life. And we’re going to go into that right after this.

So a big concern that I hear, especially in our balance community, is when kids play video games, sometimes they come off very overstimulated and parents are complaining that, my gosh, they won’t do anything if they won’t get off their video games. Like, how can we look at video games in a way, because you say to look at them with neutrality, but how can we manage this situation where kids might be overstimulated, but we know that possibly video games are giving them the right thing? Like, is it game by game basis or how would you begin to approach this?

Ash Brandin (22:07)

That is a great question and is a big part of my book. There’s a middle third that I call the ABCs of screen time. And it’s like the three components that I think are really important to consider around screen time. And they are also like the major pain points that tend to come up. So they stand for access, time spent on a screen or how kids get time on a screen, behavior and content. And most of the time in situations like you’re describing, somebody hearing that might go like, well, the problem’s always behavior.

It’s behavior, right? Like that’s always the thing, right? But in what you’re describing, like, yes, we can say that the problem is they’re getting like overstimulated or dysregulated and then it’s hard to end. Well, that could be genuinely behavior and that any screen for any amount of time would be producing that behavior. But in all likelihood, it’s being impacted by access and amount of time and or content. So.

What helps me in those moments is to think about like, what is the need right now? Like, what is the purpose that this screen is serving? And if it’s just leisure, that’s fine. If it’s like, I’m making dinner, okay. If it’s, I am putting baby down for a nap and I’m not in the same room, those have very different implications because if the need is, I need to be like fully focusing on something else, then the screen time needs to not need much from me, right? Like it needs to be kind of hands off and minimal in terms of my role. And so that might impact the content I say yes to, right? Like if it’s something where I’m like, I need to be in the other room putting your baby brother down for a nap. So it needs to be quiet and I need to be not interrupted. Then I’m probably not going to say yes to a game that nine times out of 10 ends up in yelling and dysregulation and hyperactivity, right? And for some people that might mean they’re putting on a movie. For other people, movies, they’re just gonna get distracted and start being loud. like figuring out that sometimes be experimentation and knowing your kids. And sometimes it’s trying it and if it doesn’t work, using that as information. Because I think our tendency is to go like, I knew it and throw our hands up and be like, it’s the screen’s fault, right? It’s the fault of the game.

Brie Tucker (24:33)

It’s not hard to say that because in general society, like we’re getting fed constantly, constantly screens are bad, screens are bad. They’re causing ADHD, they’re causing ADD. Kids can’t focus anymore because of screens. Right. And we’re not saying that that can’t happen, but there are ways to do this in a useful way.

Ash Brandin (24:53)

Well, cause if I go to the place of blame, for one thing, I get it. It feels good. To be honest, mean, screens get talked about with dopamine all the time. There is a dopamine hit that you get if you can find the problem, right? If you’re like, aha, right? It’s screens. That means it’s not my kid. And more importantly, it means it’s not me and it’s not my parenting. True. So I think a lot of it is sort of a deflection. That’s… we’re not having to sit with the discomfort of worrying that it’s our fault because we don’t want to screw up our kids. And I completely get that. That’s why it all kind of like dovetails together is that if I’m coming in with neutrality, doesn’t mean I’m going to allow it all the time for any amount with no rules. Right. I don’t allow that for bike riding or baths. We’re walking the dog. Right. Those things are neutral. Yeah. But I can still come in and be able to see it as data and go, okay, that really didn’t work.

And so maybe that means that that show app game, whatever, isn’t an option in this situation. So what can I change? I can’t change that I need to make dinner. I can’t change that the baby needs to go down for a nap. But maybe I can change what we do right before or after screen time. Maybe I change how long by five minutes, right? Some amount within my control. Maybe I change what’s available and when or the content. And so that part of my book really walks through like What are the things that we can kind of experiment with and try to see if they make a difference? Because it’s about making it work for all of us. If I only go to a place of blame, what am I going to do tomorrow? Right? Like, okay, I blame the screen. What good does that do me? It doesn’t put my baby down for a nap. It doesn’t make dinner for me. I still have the same inequity that needs to be met. Right?

Brie Tucker (26:40)

Yeah, and the truth is, your kids are never going to be without screens. That is an integrated part of our lives going forward.

Ash Brandin (26:47)

Right, this is a bell I’d love, I mean, if we could have ring the bell, I’m sure many of us would. And that’s just not the reality that we’re in. ⁓

JoAnn Crohn (26:55)

Yeah, I mean, they’re on screens most of the day in school. They come home and they have to do homework on screens. They communicate with their friends on screens. I mean, I come into my son’s room, who’s in middle school now, and he is doing his homework, but he has a group chat going on his phone at the same time. So his friends and them are doing their homework together. So it’s like a way of connection as well as using screens. And so there’s no way around it. You’re right.

If you were to leave with one encouraging thing to say to a parrot when it comes to screens, what would you say?

Ash Brandin (27:31)

I start the book with this, but I think it’s important to always underscore, which is that the amount of screen time that your kids have is not inversely proportional to your worth as a parent. Meaning that if your kids have a ton of screen time, that doesn’t mean that you’re failing as a parent. And if your kids have no screen time, that doesn’t immediately mean that you are better as a parent. And I think separating those things and not seeing the amount of time our kids are on screens or what they eat or how long they sleep, any of these metrics, right? Like our worth is not a number. Yeah. Pick a measurement. And like that does not measure our goodness or value as a parent or our success as a parent. And if we come in with curiosity and wanting connection with our kids, I that goes such a long way. And it’s also okay to factor in.

Ash Brandin (28:27)

ourselves in these conversations and our kids will benefit because of it.

JoAnn Crohn (28:32)

I love that. There is no shame around screens. It’s something that I have to keep in mind even though I’m like you, am very comfortable around technology. I’m okay with all the screen time and yet still you feed into that narrative that, my gosh, screens are.

Ash Brandin (28:51)

Absolutely, we all fall into it.

JoAnn Crohn (28:53)

I’ll fall into it.

Brie Tucker (28:54)

Say an interesting, you know, addition to what you were talking about, how we feel like we’re failing, we’re not good parents, all of that. It’s because of technology nowadays. We weren’t so concerned about that. feel like, you know, further back in time and because-

JoAnn Crohn (29:12)

stranger things parents are you talking about like

Brie Tucker (29:15)

Even further back than that, you know, because we weren’t so connected and able to be so out there and where other people, we can see what other people are doing and we can judge ourselves against them and they can judge themselves against us. Like that’s one of the pieces that we know about like technology that has made us so much more anxious about it. again, technology is not going away. So we need to figure out a way to make it healthy. And I love that you are.

Breaking away the shame of screens and showing parents how to look at it in a way where it’s not good, not bad. You can make it the experience that you need it to be for your family. I love that permission.

JoAnn Crohn (29:58)

Absolutely. Okay, Ash, we end every podcast episode with this on a high note. So what is coming up for you that you’re excited about?

Ash Brandin (30:07)

Ooh, well, if you have a mostly parenting audience, feel like everyone will completely understand this, but my kiddo is having some time with grandparents this weekend and to be completely honest, I’m like, I’m looking forward to that. Yeah. Love you. Everyone’s winning. ⁓

JoAnn Crohn (30:24)

Everybody’s winning. Grandparents, kiddo, everybody wins. That’s exciting. I like enjoy all that great time. Well, thank you so much for joining us today and taking away some of our shame from screen time. And for all of you out there, remember the best mom is a happy mom. Take care of you. We’ll talk with you later.

Brie Tucker (30:43)

Thanks for stopping by.

JoAnn Crohn (30:47)

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